Bullshit on Stilts: Tackling the bullshitology of financial decisions.

Exposing Financial Fairytales: Tax-Free Retirement Account

• Keli Alo & Mark Robinson • Season 1 • Episode 17

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Unlock the secrets of financial advertising as we uncover the truth behind those too-good-to-be-true offers in our latest series, "Bullshit on Stilts." Ever been lured by promises of "can't lose" investments or "tax-free retirement accounts"? Get ready to sharpen your "bullshit sniffer" and see through flashy social media claims designed to dazzle and deceive. We promise you'll leave this episode equipped with the tools to scrutinize the allure of terms like TFRA and other buzzwords popping up during open enrollment season.

Join us as we peel back the layers of misleading marketing, especially the enticing world of tax-free retirement accounts and cash value life insurance. With a mix of serious analysis and a sprinkle of humor, we dissect these so-called "rich man's Roths" to reveal the truth behind their grandiose promises. Explore the ethical implications of these strategies and understand why transparency is crucial in financial planning. Don't miss our engaging discussion about the power of social media advertising and how to distinguish fact from fiction while navigating the financial services landscape.

Developing your financial bullshit sniffer one episode at a time.

Keli:

Welcome to Bullshit on Stilts, a podcast hosted by two guys with vast financial backgrounds and great bullshit sniffers who call out the cliche crap, spackle and flap doodle spewed by so-called experts across the landscape of financial advice Identifying as doctors of bullshitology. You can count on your esteemed hosts okay, maybe knuckleheads to bring you a lively, if not deadly, mix of bullshitology. You can count on your esteemed hosts okay, maybe knuckleheads to bring you a lively, if not deadly, mix of serious analysis, hijinks and tomfoolery, all within a 99.1% bullshit-free safe space. Let's get after it All right. Welcome to Bullshit on Stilts.

Keli:

Today we're starting a new series in our first year of podcasting.

Keli:

Here, what we're going to focus on is how to develop your bullshit sniffer as it relates to when you're scrolling through social media, whether it's Facebook, tiktok, instagram, what have you? There's an awful lot of marketing and, more importantly, an awful lot of advertising that's coming out of the insurance and financial service industry, and so today's discussion and the future couple of podcasts following this are going to really focus in on some of those areas that we see ourselves on social media that can really get a person's, let's say, juices flowing and not necessarily in a good way right around the urgency. So that's what today is going to be about, all right. So, mark, we have a lot of discussions, obviously offline, even though we don't like each other. So the question is, when it comes to marketing, when it comes to advertising and financial service, insurance industries, what's going on there? How does a financial sales professional agencies, brokerage operations, what have you? How do they go about getting people to want to touch, tap on something, watch a video, and so forth? What's going on?

Mark:

there. Well, you've got to get their attention to start with, and you don't do that with measured phrases and speaking more factually about whatever product or service you're attempting to get their attention with. So to get their attention, you need to make outrageous claims or the equivalent of bait click.

Keli:

Um uh, bait click um, oh, oh, you mean clickbait so we have claims like can't lose yeah, zero's your hero.

Keli:

Guaranteed returns of between something high and something even higher?

Mark:

yeah, nine percent using a different name to describe the generic underlying product. Yes, virtue claims, I'm a fiduciary, indeed, can't miss out no loss.

Keli:

I love the introduction, the.

Mark:

IRS doesn't want you to know about what your advisor doesn't want you to know about, but I know all those types of claims yeah, they're all out there, it seems.

Keli:

Even better are the ones that are historically inaccurate, like Section 401k of the IRC came and was a result of the Depression. Yeah, I have to go back to one thing, kelly.

Mark:

You know the fact that we, as you stated very accurately was you know we don't like each other, but it's not that I avoid you. Stop looking at me. So, for example, I came here today to do the podcast. I don't avoid you, I just ignore you, and the reason for that is avoiding takes too much effort. Wake up, wake up, wake up.

Keli:

I'm sorry, I must have dozed off.

Mark:

So, kelly, it's September and we're getting into open enrollment season for retirement accounts, healthcare decisions for your health plan if you're with a larger employer. So we're starting to see on the internet or at least you are when you're scrolling through your device things about retirement plans. You mentioned one called a TFRA. Yes, tell me about what that is, kelly one called a TFRA.

Keli:

Yes, tell me about what that is, kelly. Tax-free retirement account, tfra I've come across it quite a bit personally when I've been on Facebook or Instagram, and so tax-free retirement account is ultimately and very simply a line of discussion with perspectives.

Mark:

Now do me a favor Don't spoil this by telling me what the root underlying instrument is. Oh, okay, so it's a tax-free retirement account. I'm going to need a half hour to think through this now. So tax-free? Under what conditions?

Keli:

Tax-free retirement account under the conditions of. Well, I can't say what it is. Is that the rule now?

Mark:

Yeah, don't tell me what the underlying instrument is.

Keli:

Well, that stinks, all right. So tax-free retirement account is an account that I'm just asking simply, why would you lead with tax-free the T-F-R-A?

Mark:

because it sounds good, or tax-free? What do we mean by tax-free?

Keli:

Tax-free, meaning that you can get access to money to help support you in retirement without paying taxes, Unlike that big nasty traditional.

Mark:

IRA. Hold on here, hold on. Yeah, that's my BS, my bullshit nasal spray to truly activate my bullshit receptors. I had no idea. All right, let's go at it. Let's go at it.

Keli:

Snorting saline solution. Holy buckets.

Mark:

Okay, so tax-free retirement account, All right. So it's called tax-free, all right.

Keli:

Yeah, so in this case they're positioning that there's an account that exists, that you can put money into, that when you retire, you can access that money tax-free. Okay, so that's a tax-free.

Mark:

Right, and oh, by the way, it's not a Roth IRA. Okay, yeah, so it's tax-free. Isn't that interesting? We have the word retirement. Is it only when you retire?

Keli:

Well, the tax-free retirement account right out the chute would make me think, huh, that's interesting, it must be a Roth IRA. And then they say but it's not a Roth IRA.

Mark:

Okay, so tax-free retirement. That has me leading in a particular direction, that it is exclusive to my retirement, because I'm going to be starting to equate that to an IRA or a 401k. So you got me on the tax-free retirement account. Is it indeed an account? Just yes or no? And the reason.

Keli:

I ask that is I?

Mark:

only have two brain cells and both are competing for second place.

Keli:

I get you.

Keli:

Okay, I only have two brain cells and both are competing for second place.

Keli:

I get you, okay, I get you. So yeah, if you stop playing with the slinky for a second and just focus here, all right. So it is not an account as would be defined by an investment account, a retirement account, a 401k account, even a pension account. Those are all accounts. This has nothing to do with an account, in all honesty.

Mark:

Okay so tax-free retirement account. You give me a lot of things to anchor on, but I'll bet you there's more to it than that.

Keli:

Anchoring bias is a cognitive bias, in other words, it's how your brain, or my brain, works and figures things out, and what it does is. It involves relying heavily on the first piece of information, known as the anchor quote unquote encountered when making decisions or estimates, often leading to insufficient adjustments from the initial value, like tax-free retirement account.

Keli:

A lot more to it Tax-free retirement account.

Mark:

So a rose is a rose is a rose, wrote Gertrude Stein, which means that you know you can use all the words you want to, but something, its root, its essence, does not change. So it seems to me that we're using a lot of other words here that really don't tell me what it is. It's a secret right.

Keli:

This is the Wizard of Oz and nobody gets to look behind the curtain at the wizard doing his work.

Mark:

So can I do a switch on Romeo and Juliet when Juliet is whispering to herself a rose by any other name would swell, would a rose she was drinking? All right, she was drunk on love Kelly. So if a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet, really this one might smell pretty raunchy.

Keli:

This one smells and the indicator is that they will also position this opposing 401k plan, opposing Roth IRA, opposing actual retirement accounts. This is better With a 401k, you have a maximum amount of money you can contribute every year, based on the Internal Revenue Code, section 401k. You have a limit the amount of money that you can contribute to an individual retirement account, an IRA. The same is true for a Roth IRA. With the tax-free retirement account, one of the selling points will be there is no contribution limit. You're not limited to $26,000, as an example, in your 401k, you're not limited to $7,000. In the IRA or the Roth IRA, you could put $100,000 a year into this 7,000. In the IRA or the Roth IRA, you could put 100,000 a year into this. So it's a really sexy concept if a person wants tax-free money in retirement and they have the earnings or the mentality to save a whole bunch of money into a quote-unquote account. So all of a sudden it's tax-free, it's for retirement and I don't have the limitations that other retirement-oriented savings accounts have.

Mark:

Wow, boy, does that sound good, doesn't that yes?

Keli:

So I mean leading with all of that. Everybody wants to go oh geez, tell me more Geez. How can I get around Wall Street and the IRS and the government? How can I do that? And that's where these hooks start being set into.

Mark:

Isn't that interesting? Yeah, does it go by any other name, or is it? Yeah, let me one last thing. Well, I'm just getting excited to know what this is.

Keli:

I know you are. You're kind of bouncing on that seat right there. It's kind of entertaining. So the other part is this they sandwich in some of the more sophisticated folks around the US current economic scenario and where taxes will go because we keep spending a whole bunch of money. So anybody I've spoken to over the last decade plus, they always think income taxes are going to go up.

Keli:

Playing on that fear which everybody has, regardless of what history proves out. Playing on that fear which everybody has, regardless of what history proves out, this thing, being tax-free already, is set to protect you if income taxes go up over your working life. So not only do I have a tax-free retirement account quote-unquote that I have no limitations on what I can contribute in it, quote-unquote but as income tax is going up, if you do this, you're protected from your money being taxed to death in your retirement. So you get to save all you want and you get to take it out of the let's say, the root cellar where we can all our vegetables for the winter. You get to take that out whenever you want and you won't pay a dime in taxes.

Mark:

Since I took my spray, my bullshit sniffer is up.

Keli:

Starting to say cheese.

Keli:

I'm going to give you an example.

Mark:

It's story time. You remember Ralphie from A Christmas Story? Yes, and he's listening to Little Orphan Annie. Yes, and he orders his decoder ring Ovaltine. Yes, it's Ovaltine decoder ring yes. And the message from Little Orphan Annie, if you recall. He was in the bathroom and he's starting to decode it and the message was be sure to drink your Ovaltine 100%. And what did he say after that? He was disappointed. I forget the age. He said a crummy commercial or a crummy advertisement or something like that.

Keli:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he actually locked himself in the bathroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I sense that's coming here. Well, what they do with? This and it could be TFRA, it could be any sort of other positioning. Tactic in advertising is to get you to stop being defensive and pull you in through curiosity, through what you were talking about, these grandiose statements, yeah so tax-free IRS, section 7702.

Mark:

What do you say?

Keli:

How do you say zero in the military, zero, yeah, yeah, it's zero, it's not O, it's never O, you never O, especially on a field artillery net, you say the wrong thing and rounds are going in the wrong direction.

Mark:

All right. So we've got tax-free, we've got retirement, we've got an account. This has got to be better than my 401k.

Keli:

Well, wait, it gets better. You want to hear a little bit more of the better. All right, you sure?

Mark:

Yeah, I don't want to bore you. I'll still be a little bit of a Ralphie here. Yeah, I don't want to bore you.

Keli:

But here's another. Let's say we're on top, you'll never lose a dime to performance in your account. That's another thing that they'll fold in. If the market's dropping a bear, you won't lose a dime. That's pretty sexy, especially when people live through 2001 and two. They live through 2008,. They live through 2020, they live through all sorts of these things, seeing their 401ks go to 301ks or 201ks in 08, right, so that fear.

Mark:

Yeah, now they're 80ks, that's right, right. That's right, so that's another thing, so I've got tax-free. Yeah, this is for my retirement, which I could live another 30 years. Yeah, right, I have an account, which makes it special because most things like my bank account, my 401k account, it is an account. So this is an account, a tax-free retirement account. It also has further credential because it is part of the IRS code 7702, which gives it legitimacy. And in certain circumstances I have no downside. That's right, kelly. Why don't anybody invest in anything else?

Keli:

outside of this, because when a person hears what this is, all of a sudden, all of their preconceived notions, all of their defensive skepticism typically floods the brain. Whether they want it to or not, it's just how we're wired. So imagine this. Imagine if someone comes up to you and starts talking to you about a TFRA in this example, and they're using the terms we're talking about account and guarantees, and you won't lose a dime in a stock market bear and all these other things. Yeah, it sounds really good, but what do you think it might be that it would cause me, the sales professional, to kind of basically create urgency and desire and wants without ever telling you what the hell this is. I mean, if we really are proud of what we have, why don't we just tell you what it is and then we can help you understand how to implement it?

Keli:

Problem is, people, when it comes to financial decision making, like to kick that can down the road, and when they find out what things are up front, what do they do? They shut down. I'm not going to do that. What is one of the great solutions from financial service? Slash insurance that exists for people, because life is uncertain. What is that solution? That half of that industry sells.

Mark:

Wait, wait, don't tell me Ooh, I like that, an insurance policy, an insurance policy 100% accurate. Maybe a whole life, maybe a term.

Keli:

Right. So when we're talking about insurance, whenever you hear this tax-free retirement account or anything like that, a Roth IRA for the wealthy, rich man's Roth, these are all permanent life insurance policies, not just any Permanent life insurance policies that generate and accumulate cash value in the policy, meaning when I pay my premiums into this policy. Some of that goes to paying for my life insurance. There's a cost to insure my life, but whatever doesn't pay for that sits in that policy and grows by virtue of however that policy is structured to grow and add to the accumulated cash value of that policy itself. Does that make sense so far? I mean that's a lot of technical.

Mark:

I'm still working through.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah, it seems like you've taken away a lot and we're just talking about a generic though very good instrument when it is for the right person, for the right circumstances and to the right amount, which is an insurance policy. You just have taken away all of my anchors tax-free retirement, vetted and mentioned within the IRS code, yep, section 7702. Yes, excuse me, 02. And it's an account? I get that, but now we're talking about a policy which is not an account, is it? Nor is it an investment. No, it's not, sneaky turtle. So you're saying a lot of things that you know I will infer, but you're not really saying them. I didn't say this was a retirement account. I didn't say this was an investment. But you have me the way you've positioned this. Gee, maybe my 401k isn't what I should be investing in or as much into.

Mark:

I should be putting it into this. That's right. I don't need a Roth IRA because you already said this is tax-free. Yeah, that's right. So when Penn goes to application, am I signing up for a tax-free retirement account, kelly, no, you're actually applying for life insurance.

Keli:

Oh yeah, this is a life insurance sales and marketing tactic. Nothing wrong with it. But most people out there listening to this don't have any idea where this yellow brick road's going. And from the start, tax-free retirement account, it's going to a life insurance policy. So why?

Mark:

would you tell me it was a?

Keli:

tax-free retirement account, because if I say I'm a life insurance agent and I'm here to help you take care of yourself and your family, vast majority of people don't want to spend'm a life insurance agent and I'm here to help you take care of yourself and your family.

Keli:

Vast majority of people don't want to spend money on life insurance and the type of life insurance that funds the tax-free retirement account concept and that's all it is.

Keli:

It's just a concept that is permanent cash value life insurance, which is a lot more expensive than term temporary life insurance, and the vast majority of people just want to buy term. If I come to you and I say I want to talk to you about cash value life insurance and what a miraculous financial instrument it is, of the 100 people in the room, 90 have already dismissed this as something that they want to know, for whatever reason. Most of them are lack of understanding, lack of knowledge, but it's easier to say no, I'm not going to do that. But people that want to bait you into clicking, bait you into setting up a 15-minute free consult and they're talking TFRA. You have to know that's a life insurance sales engagement for the person on the other line, so you've been not really telling me a transparent truth this whole time. When do I get to start trusting you? Because we got to this point through manipulation through misdirection through preying on what we know.

Keli:

So many of us have as a root concern Running out of money in retirement, being taxed to death in retirement because we haven't maybe planned taxes properly. I can't fund life insurance and 401ks and Roth IRAs, so something's got to give.

Mark:

So maybe we need to look at and frame within the context of what is in our better interest and if it arrives at where a policy, a life insurance policy, makes some sense, buy it wide-eyed and you know why you're buying it 100%. So again, getting back to our Fab Five know what you own and why you own it, that's right. Well, right now I don't know what I own until you're having me sign a document saying I'm buying life insurance. Yet you have led me along. You have misled me, you have made comparisons that you can hide behind because you haven't explicitly said no, it's not a retirement. I never said that, that's right. I never said it was tax-free. Under all these circumstances, there were no caveats, that's right. You led me into this to where I have so much vested into this of my time and energy, and now you're telling me it's an insurance policy.

Keli:

What's the motivator of buying from someone that brought you through that, what they call a sales funnel? Why do they buy? Do you think Because there are people that buy Maybe 20% of everybody that speaks or touches or clicks on a video or whatever and sends an email and yes, send me your free report. Why do 15 to 20% of them actually buy? Here's my opinion of why they actually buy. Because, while an agency or a firm is using this advertising technique, when you start talking to that professional, maybe they end up turning out to be really stand-up people. Maybe in the first conversation they clarify things and say let me help you understand the power of the optionality that comes with cash value life insurance. Maybe that's what happens. So maybe they find a great agent, even though the agent is part of an agency, in this example, that uses this advertisement just to get people in the door to say, hey, can someone talk to me about this? It might be that others say, geez, based on how, I would have never called you had I known this is life insurance, but that got me interested. And now you're proving to me that this is how this whole thing works. I've parked all of my preconceived notions for even three minutes and something in there told me you don't understand the rest of the story Kelly. And something in there told me you don't understand the rest of the story Kelly. Just maybe this might be right for you.

Keli:

The other way is simply positioning it, demonizing what is traditional thinking. They will also position this opposing 401k plan, opposing Roth IRA, opposing actual retirement accounts. This is better. Well, mark, you're a single gentleman, you're 28 years old, you're making $150,000 a year, you have no kids, you don't even have a significant other yet. You didn't have to bring that up. But what if you could save more into an account that operates sort of like a Roth IRA? I have the means to put up to $20,000 a year. Guess what Rich man's Roth. Let's talk about cash value life insurance. Let's talk about paying more than you need to pay in by virtue of the plan without creating any tax adverse effects. And yeah, we can design this so you can put up to 30,000.

Mark:

Why can't I just position what it is the root instrument? Why can't I just position what it is the root instrument? Why can't I just position cash value the other ways to look at this instead of cloaking it with tax-free retirement account.

Keli:

You won't like my answer, but the answer is that true, transparent statements in many, many consumers' eyeballs nowadays, with the advent of social media since 2007, they don't believe it. It doesn't cause them to want to immediately do something. So what do you do? You have to grab them and pull them in. You have something like what? Eight seconds for an actual consumer to actually touch on a social media advertisement. I think it's even less than that nowadays, but seconds, it's not like you got 30 minutes to explain anything.

Keli:

But the difference is, if I use social media as a producer, a life insurance sales agent, I can touch 7,000 people an hour. If I'm paying enough advertising dollars, I can touch a marketplace that the AI algorithms has told me. This is based on your target market. We're going to send this advertisement at. I don't know what it is. Let's say 50 cents an ad based on number of clicks. So let's say it sends this ad out, I don't know. Let's say it's 100,000 people on Facebook that see this. I can't call dial enough to do that, and if I dial someone up and they don't know me, I'm going to voicemail. They're not picking it up. Oh, by the way, it might even say spam on top.

Mark:

Okay, so we've brought this on ourselves, and forgive me, I wasn't really paying attention to you. I was looking at my ESPN and Kim Kardashian feed.

Keli:

So I understand, and that's tough to compete with. So, in a way way, we've kind of brought this on, haven't we?

Mark:

yeah, we have absolutely we have so when we talk about the pervasiveness of bullshit, here's an example. In a lot of ways we as consumers have brought this on if it isn't fantastic if it isn't a complete exaggeration no root in truth. To a great degree, that's the stuff I look at.

Keli:

Absolutely. It's the shock jock has met social media. I mean, really, what gets our attention Foolish? Stupid human tricks, animals. Someone telling you why you should be afraid? And let me explain all the reasons why I'm telling you being afraid is the right thing to feel. I mean, think of it. You have an entire population of adults in this country. Something like 50% of us think one way is going to solve the country's problems in the election and the other half is saying no, this other way will solve the problems. Both cannot be right. There is only one right and I don't know that either candidate is going to be right. But looking at the candidates, you would. Ultimately, if you took all the color away and all of that away and just look at what wants to be done, it'd be a lot easier to make decisions. But instead it's covered up by the state apparatus of media telling you how to think and what to think and not telling you the truth. The age of anti-truth is upon us. Yeah.

Mark:

I got that in there, buddy. I got it in there. I got my licks in there, you did, and you know what? I might just leave that in there.

Keli:

Yeah, why wouldn't you Come on? That was non-party affiliate, it was just straight down the fairway.

Mark:

So, in summarizing all of this, in some ways, the pervasiveness of bullshit we have brought it on ourselves Because, no different than the tabloids that you pass in the checkout line at the grocery store, that's what hooks you. I'm not going to make a judgment on that, it's just the way it is, you do it all the time.

Mark:

So the fact that you are clicking on tax-free retirement account you're already predisposed to it because that's what you want to read. You don't want to look at your 401k account and how perhaps to optimize your investments within that. Or are you contributing enough to your 401k? You're not interested in that Tax-free retirement account. I've set a hook 100%. So we've almost set ourselves up to be receptive to the bullshit.

Keli:

In fact not just by the disposition that you're referring to, but remember, algorithms are everywhere, so if I touch TFRA on Facebook once, I'm going to get more TFRA stuff.

Keli:

It might not be from the same provider of that advertising platform or bit. So that algorithm knows what I look at. That algorithm will start guessing whether I'll be interested in X, Y or Z. And if you never see TFRA in your life, you probably don't touch on anything financial at all. Isn't that interesting? If you're only touching on the pandas and how they dance on Antarctic ice, because pandas live in Antarctic. So if you're touching only on that, all you're going to get are goofy animal feeds, predominantly, with periodically a feed that's out of nowhere. Just to see, will Kelly touch it? If he touches it, he's going to get a little bit more of that.

Mark:

Okay, kelly, within this instrument we call cash value life insurance. You mentioned optionality. Give me just a summary description of what you mean by that.

Keli:

Yeah. So optionality when it comes to cash value life insurance, again, permanent life insurance is that you have. Obviously, if you die, there's a big tax-free payment that goes to the beneficiaries of your policy. So what's in it for me when I'm alive? Is there anything in it for me when I'm alive? And the answer is is. It depends, and it depends on what else your premium dollars are purchasing and we talk about that in episode eight. Right, my, is my life insurance policy good, bad or ugly? So, when it comes to optionality and I'm alive, well, a lot of these policies today when I say today, I mean today, not 10 years ago, not 20 years ago, but today they have additional features to that policy of something happens to you. If you have a long-term care event, chronic illness, maybe you're 40 years old but you had a bad accident and you no longer can think like you used to. You're still alive, everything's fine. Well, in that case, that chronic illness, you may be able to tap into not the value of the cash inside your policy but the actual death benefit. If you have a critical injury, critical illness, you may be able to, if that exists as part of your policy, again be able to tap into a portion of the death benefit, nevermind the cash value. We call that revaluing that asset because of some event that occurred to you in your life. You also have the ability to use some of that cash value down the road when you're in retirement, on a tax advantage basis to supplement lifestyle. Oh, by the way, other people will communicate to consumers that this is a personal bank where, after 20, 30 years of owning the policy, there's so much cash value in there you can borrow money out for whatever you need and you can return that money back to the policy. It's a powerful instrument on its own right. I and you have a problem with people misleading you into the conversation of the benefits of the solution and then down the road, let you know oh, by the way, this is cash value.

Keli:

Social media today is a great platform. There's a lot of fun of it. There's a lot of information that we're accessing from social media platforms. Whatever the platform is that you use, great. Some of the challenges of social media are seeing through the fog that advertising creates to kind of dupe you into doing something that you might not do if you knew the root product they're selling, the concept they're selling, or what have you? So we're here simply trying to help you see very quickly through the fog and say, ah, tfra, tax-free retirement account, it's a cash value life insurance policy. That's where they're going with it. Nothing wrong in listening, learning a little bit and so forth, but just that's where they're going with it. Nothing wrong in listening, learning a little bit and so forth, but just know, that's where this is going. This isn't going to a Fidelity Investments investment portfolio made up of mutual funds, etfs and so forth. It's not going there. It's going to the life insurance side of the industry. That's the wrap-up. I don't know.

Keli:

That's a crappy wrap-up, isn't it? Yeah, but you don't have to be podcast, so let's just leave it. Okay, at least we're consistent. Hey, this is kelly. Thanks for tuning in to bullshit on stilts. We really enjoy, um, making these for you all and getting, uh, great feedback from you. Thanks also, a big shout out to bensound dot com, upbeatio, as well as pixabaycom Great platforms that have helped us turn this podcast into something a little bit better than meh. Thanks a lot. We'll see you next time.